terrible. under the guise of a 'competition' these guys are trying to screw free work out of Struggling businesses. Shame on them.

Professionally & succinctly put.
Tell you what Mr X, don't bother eh?

Steve,

If your organisation champions the cause of the creative industries, why are you instigating a competition that causes so much harm?

My view is that logo contests are extremely damaging to our profession. Spec work on the whole is a disease. No other industry is ever asked to work for free.

Have you seen the recent PR own goal by Moleskine by trying to Crowdsource some branding work? The result - lots of angry designers boycotting the product. http://on.fb.me/tdM5Am

http://www.no-spec.com/about/

Andrew

Steve,

Get your hand in your pocket.

Show you really care.

thanks to andrewsixashes and our latest anonymous commenter. i'm pleased that our initiative has created some conversation.

just to clarify, PACE is a not-for-profit organisation and besides the work it does to bring the different facets of the creative industries locally closer together, it also raises many thousands of pounds for deserving causes. PACE will be making considerable donations to our current charities, the Queen Elizabeth Hospital Birmingham Charity and NABS, the National Advertising Benevolent Society.

historically we have also supported charities such as Promise Dreams, Marie Curie Cancer Care and the Teenage Cancer Trust.

not a penny raised by the organisation is pocketed by anyone involved. monies are either donated to charity or ploughed back into PACE events and initiatives. Both myself and the other members of the Council that run PACE do so on a completely voluntary basis. executive time that ordinarily would cost many thousands of pounds each month.

the cold facts are that an charitable organisation like PACE simply does not have the funds available to commission a rebrand in the traditional way.

so then, to compare PACE to a commercial concern such as moleskine, who may well have marketing budgets available for such work, is wrong in my opinion. happy to debate this further and thank you for the fb link, andrewsixashes, a very interesting read.

as i have already alluded to, my agency had planned to donate this work for free but we, the Council of PACE, thought a competition of this type may engender the organisation to a wider audience helped by our good friends at the drum (thanks again, guys!).

the benefits of donating work pro-bono, is an interesting debate. everywhere i have worked during my career, there has been some element of the agency's output that has been donated for free to some cause other… everyone's got one!

i also know people who work in other professional services, legal and accountancy to name a couple, who donate their time and services to worthy causes so, andrewsixashes, to comment that only the creative industries do this doesn't hold much water in my opinion.

i'd love to continue this in person. you can catch me at the next PACE First Thursday free networking session, next thursday (funnily enough) at Nuvo Bar, Birmingham: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=222524891143023

first drink for any commenters on this thread is on me! how's that for putting your hand in your pocket? please don't bring your entries along though, i need to remain impartial ;)

let the debate rage!

steve.
--

if you're involved in the creative scene within the west midlands, care about trying to raise it's profile and have the time/capacity to have a stab at it. then do.

if not, dry your eyes and get back to designing £20 logos using shit from shutter stock.

Steve, stop digging. You're in enough s**t as it is.

Steve, stop digging. You're in enough s**t as it is.

Whilst I am normally vehemently against competitions like this and I support the no spec campaign, I do think they need to judged on their individual merits.

This is obviously a not for profit organisation, and if you look there is a prize - a years worth of the drum and an iPad or cash equivalent.
Believe me I've taken paid logo jobs that pay a lot less than that in the past!

Yep, I think in this case, people are jumping on the 'No Spec' bandwagon because it's a massively hot topic at the minute. I don't think this really fits into the '99designs' category - it's a competition, with prizes, run by a not-for profit charity. And I'm pretty sure Steve was aware of the controversy over crowd sourcing before he decided to do it this way.

Shame about the old Pace logo though - I've always rather liked it.

thanks for the recent intelligent additions to the thread.

as a designer and a business owner, i obviously sympathise with the no spec message. i long ago lost count of how much work i must have given away over the years in pitches, chicken-chases and dead-end briefs.

however, it's symptomatic of the drive for new business i think. the vast majority of clients are fair... but some aren't, some are downright criminal and it's very often difficult to tell the bad eggs from the good ones.

if anyone has any clues, do tell.

steve.
--

Hi Steve,

I appreciate how you have opened the brief to the community - yet the gripe with competitions/spec work is that somebody always looses out. The quality of the work is often significantly weaker than that which has been crafted - I use that word strongly - crafted - with a good client/designer relationship and strong and thorough research. I understand that PACE is a not-for-profit organisation - however, I imagine if you would have approached a small, hard working studio they may have taken the work on and done the job justice. Instead (not guaranteed but likely) you will be picking a mark from the best of a bad bunch. Again, I commend the work done by the charity and yourself, yet you can't escape the fact that a lazy competition may only generate lazy design - and an identity deserves much more than that.

received a great bit of DM this morning courtesy of my new best mate, mr.x.

drum comments go postal!

http://twitpic.com/7c20yx

No such thing as bad publicity? ;)

Mr Price, get your facts straight before you start posting libelous comments about me. With reference to your Twitpic image, it did NOT come from me and I know NOTHING about it.
I look forward to seeing a retraction soon.

You do realise that anyone can see who you are by clicking onto your name?

Ms Arthur, I draw your attention to the following opening statement from the Drum's Privacy Policy: "The privacy of your personal data is important to Carnyx Group Ltd."

I have just found out that this is patently untrue.

As you have just exhibited a gross breach of trust (not to mention your flagrant disregard for the Data Protection Act) I will not be posting on your site again.

If the Drum wishes to be seen as a serious publication, it could do a lot worse than following its own rules and obeying the laws of the land.

Anybody can click onto your alias 'Mr X' and see your details. Just as you can click onto mine and see my full details..
When we relaunched the new website we made sure that you could no longer post anonymously on news stories as it was enabling users to post potentially hurtful and defamatory comments.

"Mr X"- The Drum and it's employees are aware of the data protection act. Your real name can be viewed by employees here, by subscribers and by non-subscribing viewers alike. Therefore the mention of this public information is not a breach of Carnyx policy and certainly any laws.

Please go to the edit section of your profile if you wish this detail to be changed also.

Mr. X if you had any brains you wouldn't use any of your real details, not least your real name. Honestly, the naivety of some people. This isn't a data protection issue it's basic common sense. Not that I use a pseudonym ofcourse..

whoa mr.x...

i get a letter in the post from a "mr.x".

believe it or not, you are the only 'mr.x' i know.

please defend yourself.

warmest regards,

steve.
--

I find it morally reprehensible that Chris Lon... sorry... the so called 'Mr X' is posting under my pseudonym and using the same joyless, robotic writing style that I've spent so many lonely hours perfecting. I look forward to a full retraction. I hope you liked my cock drawing - it's to full-scale you know!

Anonymous or otherwise the cock submission was very funny and should be applauded.

We love cock submissions

I''ve just read this back over and i should point out its ALL supposed to be constructive...
-----------------------------
Other than ALL of the above, there are so many reasons that PACE shouldn't be re branding as BPA... Maybe if the people who have put the brief together had started by pumping 'BPA' into google, they would see a few of those reasons....

BRITISH parking association
BRITISH parachute association
BRITISH pig association
BRITISH Pyrotechnists association

There's a common thread there if you look REALLY closely.
...and given that BIRMINGHAM is kinda 'intrinsic' to the offer, it's maybe not best foot forward, re recognition of the offer? Just sayin?

My tuppence-worth... to EXPECT to get a meaningful, relevant brand identity from this brief and for the cost of a £40 membership and a Drum subscription (don't forget the ubiquitous iPad £299 in Costco) and a shoe-into the Cream Awards (on what merit?), isn't really putting the kind of 'business' value on the 'process' that you might expect. I mean, I'd bet you've probably spent more than than on a winter coat this year? I know I have.

Maybe if your brief contained something about your 'purpose' or you 'personality' as an organisation, the end result might have more meaning? Or if the identity were to sit alongside some of your messaging maybe? (I'm assuming you've got all your messaging agreed if you're at visual stages?) Instead of suggesting the identity should work in mono and full colour? - Standards for any designer worth his or her salt.

If this really is a 'brand' exercise then I'd suggest you include more of the cultural side of your organisation in the brief. Y'know..? The kind of thing your members can expect from you. Your purpose...your beliefs.... How you go about things and why that should matter to them..?
Instead of just some corporate 'lipstick'... "New logo Sir? Suits you!"

It's disappointing to say the least when what you're really asking for, is a logo design applied to a newsletter (no brief, Digital? Printed? Both? Delivery, shareable? etc..etc...) Letterhead (extended to cards, invoices, etc) and a website homepage... ??? (not without a couple of drill downs to make sure the design works)
Quite a shopping list for your budget/prize i'd say.

The saddest thing about this whole 'joint venture' with the drum is that it completely undermines the community it suggests its supporting? (It's not like I'm making it up, just take a look at the comments above) As always, the audience decides. Not the judging but in the number of entries you'll receive and from who. Student V's Professional.... I would hazzard a guess (maybe something you should have done before pressing the go button on this) that you won't get many serious, or more importantly, 'relevant' entries? Time will tell. Or more specifically, your poll for a winner will tell. You've shown your cards. You're in the process of fielding the backlash of the design community on here. Also, there is now an expectation set to see MEANINGFUL results. I'm guessing this hasn't gone quite as you planned on the PR front?
( I guess a lot, I know. It's a habit of mine)

Clearly its a anyone's choice to get involved or not and in these times of despair, someone out there might really need an iPad? But... Have you considered the damage to your brand if you get few or NO entries? I'm guessing as this has just done the rounds on facebook again today, that maybe its not looking so good on that front? Maybe???

If I were a betting man and had my chargeable time to bet here, I'd probably pay the £40 for your membership, keep getting the drum online and buy an iPad. Against the 5 working days I'd suggest I'd need to do you're job properly. Saving myself a fortune in chargeable time to spend with a client that understands the value of brand and design.

People buy brands. Businesses buy brands.
People don't buy logos, they buy association. The aspire to 'be a part of'...

Don't make the mistake of thinking your logo is your brand. It's not.

to end my sermon, id like to finish with your words.
they go something like this...

FROM THE BRIEF:

What’s the proposition?:
Networking, enjoyment and altruism — Birmingham is the capital of the West Midlands region for the creative industries and where business is done. Broaden your network, have fun and raise money for good local causes.

end.

How many of you googled 'altruism'??? Hands up..? Me too.
Nothing like making your offer easy to understand to make sure they get the message. eh?

Good luck with that.

COMMENT: PACE is not-for-profit, as i have previously explained. i put a huge value on the process and realise i am asking a great deal of entrants but the prize on offer is what the organisation can afford. the money we raise goes back into our events and gets donated to our charities. our flagship charity this year helps children and young people with cancer (in many cases terminal) and also helps our wounded troops get rehabilitated after major trauma inflicted in afghanistan and other conflicts around the world. having seen these brave souls, i know where the organisation's money is best spent. to repeat, PACE IS NOT A BUSINESS. it is a not-for-profit charitable organisation. as for my winter coat, i shall be wearing my old faithful this year. times are hard.

" i know where the organisation's money is best spent..."

Imagine this... your brand is 'better managed'...

As a result, your identity is relevant and meaningful. Your messaging matters to your audience and your communication's are MORE SUCCESSFUL.
ie. Your member acquisition increases! Encouraged by member-get-member activity. (Free Marketing and the most effective.)

MORE membership fee's
MORE member involvement
MORE charity events
MORE money raised
MORE money for you to decide where its best spent...?

Your brand should be ALL ABOUT the way you communicate. Including sites like this. It's only my opinion, but to me, you have damaged the brand amongst part of your audience already. Albeit 'just one facet' of the creative industry? I'm guessing (again) that these people might find it strange that you'd be happy to pay for the marquee at your charity event but not for the 'marque' that gets the foot traffic there in the first place?

As a membership organisation you should be VERY aware that members want to 'belong'. Your Identity SHOULD play an important role in this.

As for being first with the BPA... you kinda lost that when you changed to PACE...? No? I'm guessing (there I go again???) that when you changed last time there was good reason NOT to be known as BPA...? and now those reasons don't matter?

A question for you. Would you get involved with a membership org that was 'one thing' one minute and 'another' the next? Would that suggest to you that they had clear direction? Change should happen for a reason. Not just "coz we were first!!!"
(The BRITISH Pig Association was founded in 1884 btw)

In a nutshell, it suggests regression and not PROGRESSION.... maybe that should have been suggested for your digestion when you were deciding how best to spend THEIR money. Value does not mean buying on the cheap!

I'm sure (not guessing now) that you will have a membership growth ambition this coming year? (or at least sustaining what you have?) If the name/brand change is responsibly managed, you should have a low churn of members and possibly even realise some of that growth ambition? If not, membership will tale off. Simples!

As I say to many of my clients who understand 'where they MAKE their money'... 'How much did you lose today?'

"Purpose and potential".... that my friend, is how to spend money.

for the record...
Nonprofit organisation (abbreviated as NPO) is neither a legal or technical definition but generally refers to an organisation that uses surplus revenues to achieve its goals, rather than distributing them as profit or dividends.

While Not-for-profit organisations are permitted to generate surplus revenues they must be retained by the organisation for its self-preservation, expansion, or plans.

...'self-preservation, expansion, or plans.' = Brand

to finish on a brand message... (that hasn't changed in the past few years) I'd agree with you on one point...

"Every penny counts"
Spend wisely.

Jesus!